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lambda/kw syntax and mixing identifiers and symbols (no sender) (03 Mar 2020 08:58 UTC)
Re: lambda/kw syntax and mixing identifiers and symbols Lassi Kortela (03 Mar 2020 11:22 UTC)
Re: lambda/kw syntax and mixing identifiers and symbols (no sender) (03 Mar 2020 11:45 UTC)
Re: lambda/kw syntax and mixing identifiers and symbols Lassi Kortela (03 Mar 2020 12:26 UTC)
Re: lambda/kw syntax and mixing identifiers and symbols (no sender) (03 Mar 2020 12:57 UTC)
Re: lambda/kw syntax and mixing identifiers and symbols Lassi Kortela (03 Mar 2020 14:26 UTC)
Re: lambda/kw syntax and mixing identifiers and symbols (no sender) (03 Mar 2020 14:52 UTC)
Re: lambda/kw syntax and mixing identifiers and symbols Lassi Kortela (03 Mar 2020 16:48 UTC)
Re: lambda/kw syntax and mixing identifiers and symbols (no sender) (06 Mar 2020 07:33 UTC)
Re: lambda/kw syntax and mixing identifiers and symbols John Cowan (06 Mar 2020 13:52 UTC)
Re: lambda/kw syntax and mixing identifiers and symbols (no sender) (06 Mar 2020 14:55 UTC)
Re: lambda/kw syntax and mixing identifiers and symbols John Cowan (06 Mar 2020 15:45 UTC)
Re: lambda/kw syntax and mixing identifiers and symbols (no sender) (06 Mar 2020 16:12 UTC)
Re: lambda/kw syntax and mixing identifiers and symbols (no sender) (07 Mar 2020 14:18 UTC)
Re: lambda/kw syntax and mixing identifiers and symbols (no sender) (09 Mar 2020 08:04 UTC)

Re: lambda/kw syntax and mixing identifiers and symbols Lassi Kortela 03 Mar 2020 16:47 UTC

>      >     (define map
>      >         (let ((standard-cons cons))
>      >           (lambda/kw (proc lst cons)
>      >             (let ((cons (or cons standard-cons)))
>      >               (fold-right ...)))))
>      >
>      >     I think it looks clearer than:
>      >
>      >     (define/kw (map proc lst ((user-cons cons))
>      >       (let ((user-cons (or user-cons cons)))
>      >         (fold-right ...)))
>      >
>      > Your version needs a sufficiently intelligent compiler to provide
>     the
>      > same performance.
>
>     I don't think I understand this. It only adds an `or`.

[My mistake: it adds a `let`, not an `or`.]

> You have one more local variable/indirection. The compiler needs to
> beta-reduce it.

I assumed that all but the simplest interpreters do that, but I don't
know that.

>      > Furthermore, what would you do if a keyword argument
>      > is not named after a procedure but after a syntactic keyword. Do you
>      > want to wrap everything inside `let-syntax'??? (For example, it is
>      > reasonable to use "cond" as a name for a keyword.)
>
>     I'm not sure I agree that it's reasonable :)
>
> Why not? You may want to add a condition as an optional parameter.

Sure, but in that case I'd just use `condition` as the name. You may be
right that being able to use `cond` is better. A `:cond` keyword syntax
would solve the problem differently.

> If we argue with the simplicity and the beauty of Scheme, it should not
> matter which name the user chooses for their keyword arguments.
>
>     If identifier syntax is added Scheme, this would become quite
>     interesting.
>
> How is this related???

It could expand to a non-keyword. But since the call/kw macro containing
that identifier is expanded first, I guess it doesn't get to the point
where it would expand the identifier as syntax, so I was mistaken here.

>     That's why I'd like to have a simple and complex version of lambda/kw
>     (and define/kw) separately importable.
>
> What is the purpose of this? Apart from the fact that the version, which
> allows to choose the identifier names, is only an epsilon more
> complicated, this seems to be analogous to when you have `(scheme base)'
> exporting `assoc' without the optional third argument and `(scheme
> assoc)' exporting a version with the optional third argument.
>
> Users for which the third argument is too complicated to grasp can still
> use the three argument version, but just with two arguments.

The point is that R7RS-large and other SRFIs may end up adding more than
one optional feature to lambda/kw. If the full define/kw spec gets to
the CL/Racket complexity level, those are far from easy to read.

> The core of the Scheme language is very small. Keyword arguments would
> have to be added to this core that is to grasp.  Any programmer worth
> their name should at least have read and understood this core.

I don't agree with this. It's good that there are many programmers who
are more interested in writing applications than learning for the sake
of learning (as we are). They make valuable contributions to
programming, and also serve as a good benchmark for language design: if
a feature doesn't make them more productive, it may not be worth having.

There are still even parts of R7RS I haven't read in detail, and
whenever I write a syntax-case macro I need to check things from the spec.

Many experienced programmers eventually learn to work around the complex
parts of languages rather than learning them in detail. They learned
many complex things in detail before, and it wasn't always worth the
effort and led to complex code that was no more useful than simple code.
If programmers avoid complex features, it encourages language designers
to invent simpler ones. That sounds like a good thing to me.

> Scheme's raison d'être is that it is sufficiently different to other
> programming languages.

Definitely agreed. But one of the best ways in which it's different, is
that it's simpler and easier to remember :) These are worth preserving.