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Scheme Review bootstrapped Lassi Kortela (01 Dec 2022 22:25 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review bootstrapped John Cowan (02 Dec 2022 12:10 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review bootstrapped Marc Feeley (02 Dec 2022 12:16 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review bootstrapped Lassi Kortela (02 Dec 2022 13:24 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review bootstrapped Lassi Kortela (02 Dec 2022 13:37 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review bootstrapped Marc Nieper-Wißkirchen (02 Dec 2022 14:58 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review bootstrapped Lassi Kortela (02 Dec 2022 15:10 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review bootstrapped Marc Nieper-Wißkirchen (02 Dec 2022 16:24 UTC)
Scheme Review vs. SRFIs John Cowan (03 Dec 2022 22:07 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs Lassi Kortela (03 Dec 2022 22:39 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs Arthur A. Gleckler (03 Dec 2022 23:25 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs Lassi Kortela (04 Dec 2022 00:14 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs elf (04 Dec 2022 00:50 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs Lassi Kortela (04 Dec 2022 09:34 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs elf (04 Dec 2022 10:01 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs Lassi Kortela (04 Dec 2022 11:07 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs elf (04 Dec 2022 11:44 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs Arthur A. Gleckler (04 Dec 2022 05:15 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs Vladimir Nikishkin (04 Dec 2022 06:27 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs Arthur A. Gleckler (04 Dec 2022 06:31 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs Lassi Kortela (05 Dec 2022 13:28 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs elf (04 Dec 2022 07:13 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs Vladimir Nikishkin (04 Dec 2022 07:28 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs Marc Nieper-Wißkirchen (04 Dec 2022 09:40 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs Lassi Kortela (05 Dec 2022 13:16 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs elf (04 Dec 2022 09:41 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs Vladimir Nikishkin (04 Dec 2022 10:06 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs elf (04 Dec 2022 10:15 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs Vladimir Nikishkin (04 Dec 2022 10:44 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs Marc Nieper-Wißkirchen (04 Dec 2022 09:57 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs elf (04 Dec 2022 10:59 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs Lassi Kortela (05 Dec 2022 20:20 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs Wolfgang Corcoran-Mathe (04 Dec 2022 18:01 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs Lassi Kortela (04 Dec 2022 22:09 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs elf (05 Dec 2022 13:31 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs Marc Nieper-Wißkirchen (05 Dec 2022 13:53 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs Lassi Kortela (05 Dec 2022 13:59 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs Arvydas Silanskas (05 Dec 2022 16:43 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs Lassi Kortela (05 Dec 2022 17:44 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs Arthur A. Gleckler (06 Dec 2022 00:15 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs Wolfgang Corcoran-Mathe (05 Dec 2022 18:08 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs Lassi Kortela (05 Dec 2022 18:25 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs John Cowan (05 Dec 2022 03:47 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review bootstrapped Jakub T. Jankiewicz (02 Dec 2022 18:18 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review bootstrapped Arthur A. Gleckler (02 Dec 2022 18:34 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review bootstrapped Lassi Kortela (02 Dec 2022 18:39 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review bootstrapped Jakub T. Jankiewicz (02 Dec 2022 18:50 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review bootstrapped Lassi Kortela (02 Dec 2022 21:33 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review bootstrapped Jakub T. Jankiewicz (02 Dec 2022 22:16 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review bootstrapped Lassi Kortela (02 Dec 2022 22:34 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review bootstrapped Jakub T. Jankiewicz (03 Dec 2022 11:24 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review bootstrapped Lassi Kortela (03 Dec 2022 13:47 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review bootstrapped Lassi Kortela (03 Dec 2022 14:05 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review bootstrapped Jakub T. Jankiewicz (03 Dec 2022 15:04 UTC)
Re: Scheme Review bootstrapped Lassi Kortela (03 Dec 2022 15:22 UTC)

Re: Scheme Review vs. SRFIs Lassi Kortela 04 Dec 2022 22:08 UTC

Thanks for the feedback, Wolf! Good to hear from another regular.

> Weasel words, as the Wikipedians say.

You're right. I chose my words poorly.

> I don’t believe that this is a “general sentiment”.

General sentiment by many. Not by all.

Why do people keep saying I claim to represent a consensus of schemers?
Scheme rarely has a consensus on anything.

> I won’t try to be
> a barometer of public opinion, but I will say that the opposition to
> SRFI has been from a small but vocal minority.

I haven't seen wholesale opposition to SRFI from any serious schemer.
The opposition is "please don't stuff every idea into SRFI", not "the
SRFI process has no good uses".

> But what do you want from SRFI?

Focus on relatively mature and proven proposals over new and
experimental ones. The 90 day deadline implies SRFI should put the
finishing touches on things, not be an incubator of new ideas.

Less importantly, focus on things that are difficult to implement in a
portable and efficient way.

The main (but not only) point of Scheme Review is to try and pick up
some of the rest (which is very good work, but IMHO not done in the
right context) so that SRFI could get back to what it does best. A
process with a broader scope and no deadlines is a better incubator.

NB: Scheme Review is a "carrot, not stick" approach. I can't stop
anybody from submitting SRFIs if they want to.

I propose Scheme Review, and did the grunt work to get it started, for
the same reason as all the other projects: because nobody else stepped
up to the plate! My method is to do the work others won't do, and take
the flak others won't take, to solve problems. I continually ask others
to do share in this work but generally they don't, so it befalls on me.
Then people say that I don't get things done, lol, apparently because I
don't get ten people's work done by myself.

> You alternate between suggesting ways
> of fixing supposed problems and hinting at SRFI’s impending doom in the
> face of your alternatives. SRFI is not likely to commit suicide: the
> problems are overstated, and there is no question that more work has
> been done here than under the Scheme Live or Scheme Review banners.
> If you want these projects to succeed, I suggest you collaborate with
> SRFI instead of attacking it.

I already "collaborate with" SRFI. I've written several of them, given
copious feedback on many more, and just helped Arthur modernize the
tooling. Over 100 commits to the srfi-common repo, started
https://github.com/srfi-explorations, etc.

None of the SRFI alternatives I propose are intended to replace its core
function. Where did that idea come from?

This debacle is a storm in a teacup from my point of view.

I've made strong criticisms of R7RS-large, and I empathize very well
with anyone who's upset about them. There can be only one RnRS, and if
someone suggests something not to your liking, you should be upset.

But I don't understand what's the fuss with the other projects. Nobody's
closing down SRFI or hijacking it. Scheme.org is painstakingly designed
to be as neutral as possible. Scheme Live or Scheme Review shouldn't be
a threat to anybody, especially if vaporware.

Some say "show me the code" as if Scheme's main problem is lacking code.
The main problem is ideas, not code.

Or "nothing came from your proposal" as if I'm supposed to transform an
entire language community by myself in a couple of years.

Or "you haven't been here long enough". But people who have been here
long enough disagree widely among themselves.

I alternate between different proposals because over the long term they
are equivalent. I'm a big picture guy; I want go in a general direction.
E.g. instead of starting Scheme Review we could restructure SRFI to
accommodate the same stuff, or start an even broader Lisp Review. What I
want to do at this level of detail is whatever other people are willing
to go along with. I pitch something that would work whenever there is an
opening. If I can draw an arc from any of these alternatives to the same
long-term outcome, it doesn't matter which one to start with.

Another thing I don't understand is the split sentiment that one the one
hand my ideas are useless and will probably go nowhere, and on the other
hand they somehow seem to be a threat. Aren't those mutually exclusive?

Could they be threatening because there's something there? E.g. with
"RnRS and SRFI are doomed to succeed" I meant that's where the
evolutionary arc points. If you keep things on the current track you'll
get that outcome entirely without my involvement. Not because these
processes as planned are mistaken, but because they're being used in a
way that follows the letter of the plan but not the spirit.